The original Dutch version of this conversation can be found here.
This is a kitchen table conversation with the person who has had a prominent place in my universe for more than 38 years. My brother and North Star, Eloi Youssef. Eloi is a musician, father, son, brother, deep feeler, always investigating the strangeness and wonders of our human existence. In September and October, he will be touring the Netherlands for the second time this year with philharmonic orchestra, Kamerata Zuid, and Nederlands Kamerkoor. His first single under his own name will be released in early September.
For this conversation, we jumped into a conversational stream and let it flow organically and freely, discussing the life of an artist, how to make choices, paying precise attention, and walking your own path.
Y: Eloi, you’re about to release a new single under your own name. That’s a step in a new direction. How does that feel?
E: I feel enthusiastic. It’s simply: How cool, how fun, this wants to move! It’s evolving very naturally. I’m curious to see how it unfolds when I allow it to move freely. It doesn’t have to stay small, and it doesn’t have to become big. What is it that wants to be created organically? I’m constantly checking in with myself to see what works for me. There’s power and freedom in that. The question is always: What makes me feel most enthusiastic?
It also causes a certain level of discomfort. I’ve often sought self-worth through the things I am working on. Sometimes it feels like I have to sacrifice something, or give something of myself away.
Y: What do you feel you sacrifice?
E: It can, at times, feel like I’m hiding behind the things I create, just to get a sense of self-worth. From that perspective, I can only find self-worth when I’ve created something tangible that I can share with others. Almost like a child who wants to show something. “Look at this!” I am offering my creations so that I can get confirmation that I am good enough. In such a way, I sacrifice a sovereign state; I sacrifice that place within myself where that external validation isn’t necessary at all.
Y: So, the product becomes a type of filter. And it distorts, as it were, the image of who you are as a complete person.
E: It’s a kind of avatar of me… There’s a word for that…
Y: A simulacra maybe, that’s a complicated term, but it refers to a copy of the original—the original is no longer present in the copy. The moment that copy is perceived as real, its original essence is lost.
E: Yes, that’s what it is. And in this case, it has to do with intention. I can simply show my work without hiding behind it. Something has moved through me, I give it away, after which it is no longer mine. I think that’s the biggest challenge in the creative process. The pitfall, of course, is: “I made this—take a look—this is who I am.” The moment I identify with that external product, I lose myself in it. There’s a fear of transience, a fear of death behind that attitude: “I have to leave something behind.” As if everything has to happen in one lifetime. From that mindset, I have to grab everything, show everything, so that I can create as much as possible in this life. A “body of work,” as it were.
Y: A body of work, which then, in a type of dissociative, detached state of being, moves around somewhere in the world. Disembodied. That is, of course, something we see a lot in our society. That a person is reduced to a body that only works. That cannot stop producing because it is so afraid of standing still, of being worthless, afraid of silence and afraid of finitude.
E: Yes, and often afraid of change as well.
Y: And at the same time, you are here now as a human being to create something with your existence. Whether you do that with a great deal of intentionality, or whether it happens automatically, you are creating something with your lifeforce and your presence here on this planet.
E: Yes, that’s something I think about a lot. I am here, and what moves through me is my responsibility. This deserves precise attention! Suppose I’m going to create something to achieve success, to grab, then I’ll make sure it fits perfectly into a capitalist sound that I know is going to be played everywhere. But what does that create? What kind of world am I perpetuating? And is that a world I support? Like: the rest of can figure it out, I just want to save my own skin right now.
Y: Yes, I just want to be safe in this system for now…
E: Immersed. And the question is: What kind of life am I creating with that? That’s one of the struggles of our time. If you want to create from a different intention, it can sometimes feel very lonely because there just isn’t that much momentum yet. So, the challenge is to create such momentum towards a freer, or less destructive world, yourself. A different frequency, as it were. Less superficial.
Y: Can you describe what it means to you to work toward a different frequency, with the intention of creating a freer, less destructive world?
E: When you work with two frequencies—the place where you are, and the place where you want to go—there is always a dissonance in that transition, a noise. And the challenge is, first of all, not to be scared off by that, but to accept the dissonance.
Y: Moving through the dissonance means discomfort. To really look at what is causing harm, to feel the pain of it, and to choose a different route.
E: Yes, I think this is the pitfall of many forms of spirituality; that the dissonance is not addressed, but that the existing frequency is simply adjusted by dialing the low tones away…
Y: Oh yes, it’s as if we’re in a high frequency!
E: Yes, doesn’t that feel nice?
Y: All the gritty lows have been removed from the speakers.
E: So, there’s no dissonance in that. And that’s a difficult place to get out of because it’s quite comfortable. It’s very soothing. But as soon as someone reconnects with a lower frequency, things go awry… It reminds me of “The Beach” with Leonardo DiCaprio… He was in this perfect commune in Thailand. And someone in that community suffered a fatal wound. That person was taken a mile away to die from his wound, alone. No one wanted to face it. It’s not allowed to be there. Because to look at the wound is to be confronted with the fact that this “comfort” is not the whole story of the frequency we are currently in. Being in dissonance practically means that you have a chance to distinguish between what pulls you down and what gives you energy. An opportunity to let go of things that no longer work. For example, screen use, or certain foods, destructive behavior. Sometimes it can be very comforting to scroll on a screen or gorge on snacks. It can be so difficult to get out of that place again. As if I’m dropping my body into a lower frequency. Things like that quickly become a habit.
Y: And of course, that doesn’t just apply to your body, but also to your relationships, the work you do. Your entire human existence is molded into a certain shape. And you say, the longer you stay in a particular shape, the harder it is to break out of it.
E: That’s why it requires such precise attention.
Y: And in that attention, there’s a difference between rigid perfectionism and, as it sounds, a certain form of discipline in taking responsibility for yourself.
E: Yes, the word discipline contains the word disciple. Recently, I heard someone say, “Discipline is being a disciple of your own path.” That path is already yours. If you are a disciple of your own path, you follow the path that your higher self has already chosen. That requires discipline. And sometimes you lose your way. I think that “precise attention” we were talking about has a lot to do with balancing yourself on that path and accepting everything that comes with it. There is a certain self-compassion in allowing what wants to move in each moment.
Y: Self-compassion is also a beautiful word in this case, because it contains the word compass. So, you keep navigating back to that inner compass. Carl Jung made a statement about this that I often think about: If you can see the entire path ahead of you, it is not your path. That requires your willingness to navigate the unknown. That you dare to follow your own compass towards something that doesn’t exist yet. The destination isn’t visible yet. That is also what you were talking about with those frequencies. I sometimes find the term “raising your frequency” difficult because it is so often used in spiritual circles to completely deny all adversity, and that doesn’t work for me. But the idea is that you begin navigating towards a world that you want to witness being born. A world that doesn’t yet exist, but that you somehow sense the possibility of. I have enough evidence in my life to believe that we can transform things here.
E: Yes. It helps me to think of the slide projector analogy. You can imagine your origin, your essence, as pure light. From the moment you are born, an increasing number of slides is put in front of the projector: things you have been taught, trauma, behavioral patterns, personality. For me, it is important that all the slides are viewed and checked, one by one. Sometimes those images have had a function. Sometimes they are still useful. Sometimes they get in our way. The big task is to consistently move back towards the source of that light. The more slides with unnecessary images you remove, the lighter it becomes. The more slides there are in the way, the darker it gets. When you see all the horrors in the world today, that’s evidence of that light being blocked to such a degree that it can no longer even be perceived. That’s when you arrive at something you might call evil. If there is a spectrum, that is evil: complete darkness.
Y: That light can no longer shine through.
E: And the darker it gets, the more difficult it is to do that work. If you can no longer even see the slides, you are actually trapped in darkness. That was said about Stalin at the end of his life, that the only thing human about him was his distrust. That is precisely that darkness, when it’s all-consuming. Everything is swallowed up by such dense madness.
Y: Total eclipse of the heart…
E: We see this happening a lot in politics right now, the world over. People who are trapped in that darkness. Essentially because there has been a lot of trauma. Instead of facing that trauma and taking responsibility for it, it is ignored and the responsibility is placed on other people. And that leads to polarization. The more light there is, the less polarization is possible. Because everything is seen then. The moment you can truly see through something, it can no longer completely capture you. But the moment the light disappears, anything can happen. There is no more personal responsibility.
Y: From such a place, complete chaos and destruction are possible. And that is what we see happening on a global scale right now.
E: Yes. When you see the images of war crimes. The wreckage and the pain. To me, that’s one of the most complex issues of our time. It calls for protest. For revolution.
Y: For complete transformation.
E: I find it very difficult, and very important, not to act out of cynicism. From cynicism, you may be able to go to the streets in protest, but from a sense of hopelessness. And in terms of frequency, that’s actually creating the same thing. It’s like becoming a victim of that darkness. And that is also dark. It’s just the other side of the coin. I think that’s the biggest challenge right now, to protest from a place of genuine compassion and love. For myself, I am mostly checking to see if there’s something I can actually do about an issue, and if that’s the case, to act. And if that’s not the case right now, to let it go, and to not let it carry me away.
Y: And that you trust that there are people in other places who are in a position to do something from where they are located.
E: Not everyone has the same work to do. Ram Dass once gave a great example of a protest in ancient Rome, where everyone said to Michelangelo, “You MUST join the protest!” And Michelangelo replied: “I know, it’s good that you’re doing this, but there’s something in this block of marble that I think needs to come out…” And I think that’s the most beautiful analogy for this. To be able to feel what your work is. For that, you need the precision to know yourself in that way. If it feels right for you to go to that protest, go. And if it doesn’t feel right, don’t go. Without cynicism, but from a pure burning love.
Y: I think this is generally quite difficult to grasp. How do you get there? How do you get to a place within yourself where you have the clarity to make the right choices with that type of precision?
E: Yes, for me it’s about constantly checking the place from which I act. Is there peace and energy in what I am doing? In the morning, I sometimes take a look at what’s going on in the world. And then I might click on a video and suddenly feel, “Oh, now I’m letting myself get carried away by something that’s not right for me at the moment.” That makes me feel restless.
Y: Where exactly do you feel that?
E: I usually feel it in my stomach. And I often sense that my jaws start to cramp up.
Y: So, you feel cramping in your body.
E: Yes. Often I find myself still continuing to click anyway. Once I’ve crossed that first threshold, I can get stuck there for hours. Because I’ve ignored my inner compass. When I do listen to my body, it’s simple: “OK, that was it.” And then I prefer to lock all the screens away. That works best for me. To be in the moment again, to go for a walk. That always helps. Just go to the park. Sit outside for a while. That’s usually when most of my inspiration comes to me.
Y: So, it’s always the very simple movement of going outside, exercising, eating well, and listening very carefully to the barometer of your own energy body.
E: There is a kind of sparkling sensation to that way of living. Trusting the movement that wants to flow. Rather than: I have to do this now! I experience that with exercising as well. When I force myself to do it, I never stick to the routine for long. But when I ask myself: What movement feels right today? And – is there something that feels right for me every day?
Y: Creating that soft discipline.
E: That’s where attentiveness is so important. With every decision, check: If I follow through with this action, this movement, where will it lead? And can I allow myself to take a few steps without immediately fearing that I will lose my way?
Y: …and to continuously recalibrate. That’s somehow less rigid, or freer, than saying to yourself: I must never do this again, or I must always do this to stay on the right path.
E: Yes, I think that strict rigidity quickly leads to stagnation. Because it often stops me in taking another step. I notice that with music now too. Because I’ve taken so many steps in the past that lead to me completely losing myself… I have certainly learned a lot from it. The lessons come when you find your path again.
Y: So it’s about keeping a clear perspective on what the next sensible step is for yourself. Without getting stuck in the fear of what happened in the past.
E: Yes, that tension, or cramping up, is very logical in a way. You often see that in romantic relationships as well. When people no longer dare to enter into a relationship because they are afraid that the past will repeat itself. And then, precisely because of the tension they carry with them, they create the same scenario they just got out of… There too, precise attention is required to take steps forward.
Y: That means looking at something with your full presence. And being unafraid to face the whole picture. You are now walking your path, you are going to release a single, and you are going to do a second tour with the orchestra in September. You just said that you feel enthusiasm. Where does that enthusiasm come from?
E: There is quite a bit of enthusiasm in showing myself. That feels good to me. There’s the invitation to do that very attentively as well. Because “being seen” can very easily turn into having to be seen. When the external goal of success disappears, I can just show myself exactly where I am in that moment. I simply give something that moved through me to the world. I try to feel a healthy sense of pride and elation without it becoming another mask that I put on. From that place, free of identification, everything can be felt and experienced.
Y: Is there a kind of joy in it for you?
E: Yes, definitely. The song I’m about to release is something I dreamed. It came to me in a dream. I find that a very beautiful thing to first release. Something that wants to move from the subconscious. It’s not something I sat down to write; it just moved through me in a subconscious state of being, very organically. This now feels like the right thing to do. In that process I have very radiant moments. When I’m working in the studio and I suddenly realize: “Wow, how nice to be able to do this!”
Y: Sounds like you simply stepped into the stream of creation and caught something that was flowing through you. That’s a very pure way of creating.
E: Yes, the intention from which I created this work was clear and free. That means whatever comes out of it is also clear and free. When I talk about it like this, it sounds quite heady, but the actual movement is much more childlike. Enthusiastic like a little boy. I feel that much more strongly. That’s the true lived experience of it.
Y: The experience of that enthusiasm and energy is in the body.
E: Exactly. It’s funny. So now I’m just stepping in the direction that’s is in my view. That’s very exciting. From a helicopter perspective, I can describe it all very easily. But the actual experience, that’s where the aliveness is located. That’s a big part of the lesson. To truly step into something. To immerse myself in something. Knowing that there is enough internal radar to find my way.
Y: What word would you use to describe that process?
E: Hmmm… I feel a kind of “dancing direction” right now—something like that? A dancing, moving direction. Not sharpshooting, but fluid. I was talking about that with my girlfriend. I’m such a water person. Every moment is different. And everything is based on feeling, that’s what gives me direction. It’s constantly shape-shifting, yet moves in a particularly fluid direction. All day long I’m…
Y: …fluttering.
E: Fluttering, throughout the day.
Y: That’s a beautiful paradox in a way. Because fluttering often describes something that is directionless. But you’re saying that you use the fluttering to feel into the right direction.
E: Yeah, it’s quite amusing that I’m actually very afraid of moths and butterflies… Precisely because of that directionlessness. I can’t stand it when I don’t know in which direction something is moving.
Y: While, actually, those butterflies are not directionless at all.
E: No. They also have a very fluid path. The thing I fear most externally – that lack of direction – is essentially my greatest desire. That is often the case with fears. Same with surrender. I used to love surrendering myself to a roller coaster ride, and now I feel: “Nope, I have to stay in control, I have to drive that car myself, and know exactly how fast it’s going!” That’s a fear of surrendering.
Y: Which means that liberation also lies in surrender.
E: Yes. I think before surrender is possible, the first necessary move is daring to choose calm waters. Letting go of the tendency to constantly want to jump into the wild water rapids. In calm waters I can find the space to process and heal.
Y: That might be the work of a lifetime.
E: I see a parallel with parenthood in that. It is lifelong, and it also requires a great deal of attention. Attention to the child—who has moved through me— as well as attention to my own experience of fatherhood. It is not as if I am only ever in service of; there may also be a part of me that remains differentiated, capable of feeling my own desires. A balance between giving and taking, as it were. Both in my work as an artist and in parenthood, I seek a sovereignty within myself. So that I don’t completely lose myself. That’s actually what we started with; not to offer myself up entirely. Finding a way not to sacrifice my time, but rather, to create an open field in which both you and I are free to exist.
Y: I find it interesting that the word sacrifice is “opofferen” in Dutch, which you could translate literally as “offering empty”. To sacrifice myself to the point where there is nothing left. And that doesn’t work. But I can stand in service of a relationship, or creative work, without disappearing. That precisely because I AM present – because I participate and I matter – my service can be valuable to others.
E: Yes. In that way, the exact same experience can be either very tiring or very fulfilling. It’s the perspective from which I view a situation: “this is something that is being done to me,” or “this is what I choose.” The difference between victimhood and taking responsibility. I think those two things are very often confused with each other. As if taking responsibility equals being a victim of the situation. That takes agency and power away from the experience. But everything changes when you surrender to what is unfolding right now. To subscribe to the idea that you are essentially EXACTLY where you need to be. I take responsibility because this is the exact place where I can have this specific experience. You can try only to seek out pleasant experiences. But then you miss out on a lot. From a soul level, being able to see: “Wow, that I get to experience this now…” In all its…
Y: Absurdity! Misery! Friction! Here it is.
E: Yes, like – WOW: Here I am. That perspective always brings a sense of aliveness to every experience.
Y: Yes, that’s a very spiritual perspective. Because you look at it from an existential point of view. There is meaning somewhere in the fact that you get to experience this life as a human being. On some level there is a deep desire, or almost a deep necessity, to feel that I am meant to learn something here, that I am meant to experience something. Even though none of us really know what we are doing here, and we don’t have all the answers. We can choose to fully embrace the opportunity, and indeed take responsibility for being human on that deep soul level, in this moment, in this life, in this world. I am allowed to collaborate with life itself, as an invitation, no matter how hard and difficult it may be at times.
E: Yes. I notice that I am often looking for some type of confirmation of that idea. But we don’t get that confirmation, and maybe it doesn’t really matter so much. We create meaning for ourselves. From a spiritual point of view, you can say: Consciousness just is. And from consciousness, you can create meaning. The idea that we are all souls who keep coming back here to learn new lessons from a different perspective makes more and more sense to me. But there is also something in me that thinks: it MUST be that way. An attempt to take away a certain fear—to give meaning to the weight of it all. But still, the fact that I am here NOW. In an infiniteness that is impossible to comprehend… It’s like winning the lottery when the whole universe is participating. And everyone has exactly that lottery ticket. The idea that this is all there is, and that we have only one life to experience everything, that doesn’t make sense to me.
Y: That’s the story we’re in, of course. This temporary sense of separation from infiniteness.
E: This temporary experience, yes. This linear time, in which you can change, grow, learn. While in essence, everything is everywhere all the time. That’s impossible to comprehend fully, because you’re here now in this moment…
Y: The lot of being human.
E: Our chosen lot. That’s no small thing!
Y: It’s certainly no small thing. It’s everything!
Watch the lyric video for Eloi’s new single, Unbind, here:
Watch the recording of the song Old Rain live at the Concertgebouw:
Tickets for the tour with Kamerata Zuid and Nederlands Kamerkoor can be found here:
Get notified when we post something new by subscribing to Metaphysical Mulch. Make sure to confirm your subscription in your inbox.
Metaphysical Mulch 